CSM meeting minutes 3.003

Meeting Minutes: 2009/06/21

Present

Dierdra Vaal, Vuk Lau, Avalloc, Erik Finnegan, Larkonis Trassler, Mazzilliu, Meissa Anunthiel, Omber Zombie, Zastrow J, Issler Dainze, Shatana Fulfairas

Discussion

Omber Zombie got a reply from CCP Xhagen mentionning that nothing being discussed in the CSM channel was to be discussed outside of the channel while the meeting was in progress, until the minutes were published.
Dierdra mentionned that the CSM 3 members still don't have their email addresses and that he would continue to harass CCP Diagoras in a more pressing tone than he had before.
Larkonis asked if members with forum bans (such as himself) could post in the CSM section of the forums.
Omber Zombie replied that bans are forum wide, and that Darius JOHNSON had the same problem.

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Client Modification (Mazzilliu)

Meissa Anunthiel said that while the proposal would decrease the gap between the people following the EULA and those who do not, it was in the direction of allowing macros more easily and wondered if that was something we need.
Mazzilliu replied that the goal of the proposal isn't to allow people to rat AFK, but in some cases it does decrease the gap without adverse effect. She emphasized that the proposal was a convenience issue.
Omber Zombie said that modding in the past has lead to stripping all artwork to reduce lag, among other things, and also that it creates an arms race where everyone has to mod the client to compete.
Mazzilliu replied that people should be able to play the game the way they like, that competition doesn't rely on the UI as much in EVE as in other games, that the important part was more ship fits and other such decisions. She also stated that people might able to deal with client lag better than the devs.
Larkonis said it removes lots of player skills from the games (broadcasts, autolock, autoguns, autorep), leading to a situation where the groups with the best programmers win. He agrees the UI is pretty shit but it's a level playing field.
Mazzilliu pointed out that the skill in gang fight involves not clicking the wrong thing in the godawful interface. She also replied that people will want to make a name for themselves and release the best and newest UI and pointed to Evemon, EFT and others as examples of released tools (Dierdra pointed to Bacon as another exemple), and that there aren't useful eve tools only available to big alliances.
Larkonis replied that Evemon/EFT and other such tools don't have effects on immediate gameplay.
Mazzilliu continued, stating that software tends to spread if it is useful.
Erik agreed with Oz and Meissa in thinking it would open Pandora's box. He also pointed out that creating such plugin API without macro or security issues would take a tremendous amount of work that would be best used in a UI overhaul the regular way, as well as possibly extend the out-of-game HTTP API.
Mazzilliu thinks we would need some faith that CCP does not screw it up horribly, but no matter how CCP would overhaul the UI, nobody would be happy with everything. Unlike people creating their own. She further stated that macro opportunities are here already. She noted that security can be increased by determining what the scripting allows or not.
Dierdra expressed his support for the issue despite CCP's previous statement that it's not a good thing. He mentionned that people can already change modules/artwork and/or macro. He expressed his opinion that it shouldn't be too hard to limit abusability. He pointed at WoW as an exemple of limited abusability and said that the idea of modding wars is ridiculous, as people share the best mods. He thus thinks that the idea you need a mod to compete is flawed.
Avalloc expressed his concern that people would be depending on mods that patches would break, that creators would need to fix, but CCP would be the ones getting the grief. He however agreed the UI needs a revamp.
Mazz replied that well maintained mods take a short time to get updated and since Eve relies much less on reaction time [than WoW], people would still be able to function by using the old UI.
Meissa pointed out that some elements are hidden from view because of design decisions. He also described diverse exemples of how any functionality the API would have could be abused (reading the overview = autotargetting/scramming, reading the market = auto -0.01, etc.) thereby leading to an unabusable API being actually deprived of any function. He also pointed that while eve is currently macroable, it's a bannable offense, making it legal is in his opinion a bad idea.
Mazzilliu replied that costumizeable UI elements need to be looked at for balance, also stating that macros are poorly enforced. She expressed her opinion that auto manufacture/invention would be awesome.
Omber asked how mazz proposes CCP deal with people using client mods to steal data (ingame channel passwords, IGB data, etc.). He also asked if this proposal was Mazz' or Kugutsmen.
Mazz replied that she's no meat puppet. She pointed to a few suggested solutions to the abuse problem (mandatory open source of the mods, etc. [see proposal])
Dierdra agreed that the open sourcing requirement is needed to make the mods "clean" in terms of security.
Erik expressed his undecision on the matter, agreeing that both sides have a point. Agreeing with Dierdra that people who want to macro will macro and with Meissa's doubts about hidden information.
Mazz replied that CCP will not allow something hidden by design to be revealed in a customized UI.
Dierdra said that hidden information could be argued to be bad design decisions that would be overthrown with mods.
Mazzilliu said her ultimate goal is that CCP adopt really good player mods as the default or built-in alternative.
Voting followed with 1 minute suspense moment as we waited for Zastrow and Avalloc to cast their votes... Leading the approval of the motion(5 for, 4 against: Larkonis, Omber Zombie, Meissa, Vuk Lau)

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Share dividends payout value (Omber Zombie).

Omber Zombie introduced the issue, stating it was basically changing a value so that dividends can be paid out with one button click instead of 50
Mazzilliu asked if there was any downside to the proposal, Omber replied negatively.
Dierdra said that we should request for a code change to allow larger values instead of requesting 64 bit integers, saying we could use a "long" [Note from the secretary: "long" is programming datatype, depending on the language it's either 32 or 64 bit], his point being that we should request a solution, not an implementation.
Erik pointed to a previous CSM suggestion related to dividends that we might want to link.
Omber Zombie replied that it was already raised, passed and that CCP already agreed but "never did anything".
Erik said that past CSM was asked to provide details on a "good" stock exchange
Omber Zombie replied that it was an entirely separate kettle of fish, that this proposal is about payout of dividends.
Shatana mentionned a dev saying a couple of years ago that this was "too hard" a code change and aren't certain as that code had lots of implication.
Larkonis replied that it was about dividends, not some fancy pants fleet street stock exchange.
Shatana said that they were asking the same question, but the 64bit would cascade down crippling the client with double the workload
Omber Zombie replied that this was noted in the proposal.
Motion passed unanimously.

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Zoom Buttons (Dierdra Vaal)

Mazzziliu and Dierdra went off-topic with UI customization, which Omber Zombie and Larkonis pointed out.
Motion passed unanimously.

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Manufacturing and Invention at POSes

Meissa introduced the issue.
Larkonis expressed his current understanding of the current BP/lab/station mechanics. Meissa said it was correct. [Anyone not familiar with the current mechanics may find more information about the questions asked and answered in the raw minutes].
Larkonis asked if the proposal was going to change the need for resources to be located in the POS labs/arrays. Meissa answered that the resources would still be at the POS.
Omber Zombie helped clarify the proposal in simpler terms: "basically instead of having to remember which hanger you put the bp/mats in, it just looks for them all and does what it needs to"
Larkonis asked if it was about improving the operation of labs remotely, Meissa agreed that it was.
Larkonis asked if there would be any change to anyone coming accross labs on offline POSes, blowing them up, and then scooping the juicey loots like a nine year old smashing a pinata at a birthday party.
Meissa replied that it could, on the contrary, make labs/arrays more present in 0.0/lowsec at best and keep the status quo at worse.
Avalloc said that having all resources be pullable from a Corporate Hangar Array at a POS makes sense. Meissa agreed that this was indeed what the proposal was asking for.
Avalloc said that this proposal was trying to put too much together, especially when it came to the BPC stacking issue.
Meissa agreed, and removed the BPC stacking from the wikified issue, leaving the 2 main issues that had been discussed so far.
Erik expressed his confusion at the issue and asked for clarification as to wether the researcher would still need to be at the POS. Meissa answered that the proposal would make researcher be able start their jobs remotely.
Meissa asked if, considering some of the confusion, each half of the issue could be voted on independantly.
Voting followed on the first part (make blueprints in labs/assemblies the user has access to visible from afar, according to the Scientific Networking skill, at least optionally) and passed unanimously.
Meissa explained the second part again, which was voted on (a lab/array takes items from a corporate hangar array anchored at a POS if the lab/array lacks some items), which passed unanimously.

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Armageddon Day (Vuk)

Larkonis said it wasn't too much to ask CCP to throw one of those everytime there's a major patch, even though it's going to be laggy on SiSi [Singularity, the test server].
Omber Zombie said he was happy for this to take place on SiSi, but not on TQ [Tranquility, the main Eve cluster].
Dierdra thought it a good idea on SiSi, but not on TQ.
Vuk Lau agreed that if it's doable on SiSi, then it's better on SiSi.
Larkonis pointed that the last Armageddon Day was on SiSi and as such it should stay that way.
Vuk replied that it was not so stable, and that the player base as grown.
Larkonis asked to be made semi-regular, like monthly.
Vuk answered that if it's too frequent, it looses its epicness.
Voting followed, motion passed unanimously.

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What is in the works for FW

Erik Introduced the issue.
Dierdra saw no reason not to request more information, Vuk agreed.
Voting followed. Motion passed (6 for, the last 3 voters against: Mazzilliu, Meissa and Larkonis)

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solution to macro haulers (Maz)

Erik expressed his appreciation for the fine solution.
Larkonis thought the proposal pretty cool, as it would add some tangible reward to popping haulers.
Omber Zombie expressed his concern that without increasing the reward, it would skew the risk vs reward out of proportion (towards risk).
Mazz answered that few humans run hauler missions, but that while reward might need to be looked at this proposal aims at fixing macro mission runners. Also pointing that hauling being boring rather than lack of rewards was the deterrent to running them, not the low rewards.
Larkonis said the cargo requirement of L4 courriers are within capabilities of blockade runners, thereby removing risk for the average player.
Mazzilliu said it's not impossible to kill blockade runners, just very hard, and it increases the risk of seeing it blown up.
Larkonis agreed that a good blockade runner pilot is nigh uncatchable, but mission farmers tend to linger on gates.
Mazzilliu replied that they could just jump a carrier on top of the station and be more invincible, but as stupid carrier pilots get killed all the time, the risk will always be there.
Larkonis agreed this would make them sharpen up and make tastier preys.
Mazzilliu agreed that any area infested with farmers will attract pirates and decrease the macro population.
Omber Zombie pointed out that the proposal ignores the fact that humans actually do these missions.
Mazzilliu agreed, but stated they aren't many and are alert, thereby evading gatecamps. She agreed there will need to be a rebalancing to make it worth it however. This proposal is aimed at solving the farmer problem without ruining for people who know how to complete the missions.
Larkonis said that just like L4 kill missions have a higher requirement (well-fitted BS), it's not unreasonable to expect courrier L4s to have higher requirements.
Meissa said that people run those missions (him for one), and that a 1 mil collateral would be a lot for newbies, therefore requesting that the higher collateral be limited to L4 missions. Dierdra agreed.
Mazzilliu pointed that a specific provision was put in to preserve low level highsec missions.
Dierdra thought it an interesting idea, at least worth putting forward as CCP is likely to like a player-policing solution.
Voting followed, Motion passed unanimously.
Omber Zombie voted yes, but requested that the risk vs reward be fixed.

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Corp interface overhaul (Dierdra Vaal + Mazzilliu)

Dierdra stated he had contacted several large alliances for input.
Avalloc asked if the POS password change was on a per POS basis. Omber Zombie said it was.
Dierdra had received a couple of additions from Erik, she read them (they are now included in the wiki)
- Corp assets overview (not direct hangar access view/take) is only available to the director in the corp interface; should be a grantable right to others
- Contents of POS hangars is not visible. The hangars are shown as items in space, yet their contents is not being expanded. Should be visible more like the "assets in stations" tab.
- The asset list features a volume column, but it is not filled ?!
- Corp mail (delete) access might be a permission on its own. But that might be packaged with a mail-UI overhaul issue
Nobody objected to the additions.
Voting followed, the issue passed unanimously.
Larkonis mentionned that some of the parts in the package he didn't like but still voted "yes" because it's "mostly good issues".

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Show implants on POD killmails (Meissa)

Dierdra said this was requested in CSM 1, and CCP mentionned some technical difficulties in adding implants, adding, however, that it sounded like a lousy excuse.
Omber Zombie said the fixed the implants data in the API, so it should be less of a problem.
Larkonis said the technology and interfaces have moved in the past years and agreed to raising it again.
Zastrow requested that if this issue is going to take lots of coding time, it should get a lower priority.
Dierdra answered that prioritization is something the CSM does in a different stage.
Voting followed. Motion passed unanimously.

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More orbit range options (Erik)

Larkonis said that juggling between approach, keep-at-range and orbit was sufficient, but an extra orbit button couldn't hurt.
Dierdra said that the proposal was about configuring the existing orbit options without adding a button.
Erik said the implementation choice was left to CCP.
Voting followed, motion passed unanimously.

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Remove pause for JC and implants (Meissa)

Avalloc asked if it was a big deal, as he imagines there must be a code reason for it not to be included.
Meissa agreed that there might be reasons, such as jump cloning to a clone with lesser implants could create a queue that is normally impossible to create. But the gain to be obtained that way is small.
Dierdra said that it was fair to put this to CCP, even if there were technical issues.
Meissa said that if they can't include it for technical reason, at least they can put a pause/resume training button in the jump cloning pane for easy access.
Voting followed, motion passed unanimously.

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POS labs and assemblies use by corp and alliance (Meissa)

Omber Zombie said this had been asked for before and the CSM was told that it was technically impossible.
Meissa considered it unsurprising, however doubting about the impossibility, stating that maybe the time had come for an overhaul on that front, something he was willing to argue with CCP.
Larkonis expressed his concern that labs become less juicy targets, as components would not be in the labs/arrays anymore.
Erik said that the renting out of slots could be achieved through finer grained roles instead of pulling lab functionality into local stations.
Meissa disagreed it had anything to do with corp/alliance roles, it was a problem of access to the labs on alliance/personal basis.
Meissa asked Larkonis if he could think of a solution to alleviate the "less loot on POS blowup" problem.
Discussion followed a little bit about possibilities.
Dierdra interjected that it wasn't the right time to go through an elaborate revision of the proposal.
Meissa agreed and discarded the issue for the time being, to be resubmitted to the next meeting.

Other Business

Omber Zombie requested that a time limit be set to the meetings [the meeting lasted 3 hours].
Discussion followed on how to make it easier on people.
It was eventually agreed to hold the next meeeting 1 hour sooner.