Passive shield tanking

From Backstage Lore Wiki
Revision as of 00:42, 15 September 2009 by Lord Tappen (Talk)

Jump to: navigation, search

This guide was originally written by Pottsey and has been converted over to Wiki with permission.


Please discuss potential changes to this article in the Talk Page

What is passive Tanking

Passive shield tanking is using the ships natural shield regeneration without using shield boosters or amour repairers to stay alive.

Some people suggest that passive tanks should not use active hardeners, and that’s especially true if you want your defense to be cap immune; however, that is more of an issue in PvP where capacitor neutralizers are used. If a passive setup has unused cap there is no point in wasting it and making your defense weaker, particularly since running out of cap simply means the hardener drops down to its passive bonus. Another advantage to passive tanking includes your defense being on continuously. which means your defense is active the moment you get hit unlike active tanking which requires you to turn modules on and off. This is of the greatest benefit when in a situation where you’re caught off guard by an enemy pilot or if you’re hit by a lag spike. It used to be not unheard of for active tank pilots to warp into a mission, get hit by a lag spike, and frantically try and turn the defense modules on: the modules would fail to turn on in time they would die.

Another advantage is that passive tanks tend to have a massive hit-point pool, something that is advantageous by preventing suicide gankers from smartbombing you to death and preventing early deaths from alphastrike damage in PvP before modules can be activated, or before the cycle completes.

Passive tanking can be recommended to new pilots learning EVE as they don’t need to concentrate on turning active tank modules on and off. This also means if you crash or have to go AFK you have a high chance of survival (depending on the area of space you live in). Passive tanks are often known for being invincible in PvE, especially lvl 3 and lower missions. Even lag which can be deadly for an active tank is no threat to a good passive tank PvE setup.

Lastly the hit-point pool can help accomplish difficult missions. If your tank is too weak for the mission use the hit-point pool to kill one or more ships before warping out, then when you return the total DPS you have to tank is decreased and you can tank the remainder of the mission.

There are drawbacks however. Passive tanks only work on some ships. If Power Diagnostic Systems are used then the tank will be weaker, but if Shield Power Relays are used the capacitor is weaker. Which one is chosen depends on your ship, as Missile Launchers and Projectile Turrets do not use capacitor at all, whereas Hybrid Turrets, Laser Turrets, and Smartbombs all use capacitor.

The biggest drawback can be overtanking when you use up too many, often all of, your slots on tanking. It can often be difficult to determine how much tanking is needed for PvE since missions even within the same level vary by difficulty. In PvP passive tanking uses up crucial mid-slots which are required for tactical modules. As a result most PvPers armour tank with low slots and fit tactical modules like webbers and scramblers to mid slots.

Definition of Passive Tanking.

To have a defense method that’s on 23/7 without having activated modules to heal. This mean no active hit-point regeneration models like amour repairers or shield boosters. If you have a passive tank setup with activated modules for healing it's a hybrid setup.

There are 3 sub methods of passive tanking although the line between the first two has blurred over the years.

  1. Focus on a sustainable DPS tank with resistance and hit-point regeneration either by boosting hit-points and/or speeding up shield recharge.
  2. Focus on maximizing the hit-point pool which normally consists of a mix of boosting hit-points and boosting resistance to create a large hit-point pool as a buffer.
  3. Cap immune ships. Can be a mix of 1 and 2 but must not use modules that drain cap. Normally they fit passive hardeners and use a weapon system that does not use cap.

Note: hit-point/resistance based amour tanks are a passive tank. There are no category 1 passive amour tanks.


Formulas Simple

In short the smaller your shields get the faster they regenerate until you hit 30% then the speed drops. X is your hit-point regeneration at peak regeneration which is at 30% shield strength, 20 to 50% shield strength are strong areas, 0 to 15% and 90%+ are very slow. To work out peak regeneration


  1. The multiplier is to represent average regeneration in shorter and longer fights. You don't sit in the whole fight at peak regen so the multiplier is a rough estimate of your average regeneration over a fight. If your tank holds don't use the lower numbers stick to 2.5. In PvP I find working out regeneration with a 2.0 multiplier is far more realistic of what you will see in a fight.
  1. Some people use 2.4 to be extra safe. The real number is between 2.4 and 2.5 but closer to 2.5. If the enemy cannot break your tank for a long battle use 2.5 instead of 2.0.

Tankable DPS Simple

To work out tankable DPS using two resistance types look at the Italic line and replace A with Hit-point regeneration, B with resistance, C with resistance. Copy and paste Italic line part into windows calculator and press equal’s. Alternatively just load up EFT and set it to two resistance types.

'2*A/((1-0.B)+(1-0.C))=xxx dps' To work out DPS tankable with one resistance type, replace B and C with the same number.

To work out tankable DPS using 4 resistance types. Copy and paste Italic line into windows calculator and press equal’s and use B, C, D, E as your resistance. From March 10th 2009 you can use the new fitting screen from Eve. 4*A/((1-0B)+(1-0.C)+(1-0.D)+(1-0.E))=


Formulas Complicated and Tankable DPS Complicated

For reference: skip to the line Random pilot: if this is your first read though the guide

The correct formula for passive tanking is

20 to 50% are strong areas, 0 to 15% and 90%+ are very slow.

Some pilots like to use 2.4 to be safe.

Random pilot: Passive tanking sucks I did shield recharge/hitpoints and all I got are 30 HP/s The above pilot is wrong for many reasons and it used to be a common mistake but thankfully most people now realise the truth. Shields are none lieaner and shield recharge/hitpoints do not give you a meaningfully number, it’s not a true average. The best way to think of it is the lower your shields get the faster they charge up until your hit 30% then the shields get slower again. Its takes a bit of getting used to but it really is a case of the lower you shields get the stronger they get.

If you don’t believe me get a friend to shoot you down to 50% shield (make sure it’s a friend in your corp, we don’t want to upset Concord) now watch your shields charge up they will get slower and slower as they reach 100% you will notice 98% to 100% takes longer then 95% to 98%. In fact if I recall right 50 to 80% is faster then 90 to 100%. The same thing happens on the bottom end of the shields. 0 to 5% take ages and the shield get faster and faster as they approach 30%.

So why not use shield recharge/hitpoints=x? Well its misleading first of all that’s now how you work out average for none linear numbers and secondly it makes passive tanks look much weaker then they really are. For example if I have 8000hitpoints and 300second recharge the above average which is wrong, makes it look like I have 26.6 HP regeneration with 50% resistance so I could tank 39.9DPS and never die until someone did more then 39.9dps. In fact the shields would be (8000/300)*2.5=66.6 now add-on 50% resistance and you can tank 99.9dps before dieing. A lot of people used to look at the 39.9 dps number and go passive tanking sucks it will never work. Now for PvE and to a lesser extent PvP what matters is the peak regen as if its high enough your shields will never drop below 30% and you don’t die. By working out how much damage the enemy deal you can make your self invincible in missions. As a very general rule 650dps tankable will be enough for all lvl 4 missions, 1000 to 1500 dps tankable will do the bonus areas/gate in lvl 4 missions and let you aggro hole rooms at once.

Back to shields the 2.5 modifier is what we call peak regeneration this is very important it lets you know how much you can tank without dieing. The above numbers let me know my made up ship has a peak of 66.6 HP/s regen so it can tank 99DPS all day long once I factor in resistance. (How to factor in resistance is explained later on). For PvP average regeneration is more important then peak, so how do you workout average regeneration for a non-linear number? Well its long and boring for now just use the below modifiers as estimations based on what type of battle your expecting.

  • 2.5 for peak when you know your tanks will hold
  • 2.4 for peak when you know your tanks will hold but you want to be extra safe.
  • 2.2 for medium to long battle where you tank will break over time
  • 2.0 for a short battle where the enemy DPS is far higher then your tankable amount
  • 1.5 well if your dealing with this or worse chance’s are your already dead. Once you’re in a situation where you expect average regeneration to use a number less then at recommend to forget about passive regeneration setups and use passive tank hit-point setups or active tanking.

As most of you have worked out by now the correct formula for passive tanking is (shield cap / shield recharge rate)*2.5 only you replace 2.5 with one of the above numbers. Now some people by now will be panicky a little at the sight of math but it really is easy. Just take it one step at a time or use a tool like EFT

Copy and paste the following Italic text into a program like notepad.

2.5x(A/b)= Now in notepad replace A with your shield hit-points. Replace B with your shield recharge. Now highlight the formula and press copy. Load up windows Calculator and press past. The answer is your shield regeneration at peak. For example let’s say my ship has 6000 hit-points and a shield recharge of 300seconds. The above formula turns into 2.5*(6000/300)= so I highlight the italic bit copy and paste into windows calculator and get my answer.

Alternatively replace 2.5 with 2.2 or which ever is best for your situation.

Now onto resistance. Keep note of your HP regeneration your going to need it. The formula to work out DPS tankable for two resistance types is 2*A/((1-0.B)+(1-0.C))= xxx dps As before copy and paste the Italic bit into notepad. Replace A with Hit-point regeneration, B with resistance, C with resistance. Copy and paste Italic line into windows calculator and press equal’s.

For example using my up ship stats from early on. I have 50% Thermal, 55% Kinetic reistance and 66.6HP/s regeneration. This means 2*A/((1-0.B)+(1-0.C))= becomes 2*66.6/((1-0.55)+(1-0.50))=140.2 So you just copy and past 2*66.6/((1-0.55)+(1-0.50))= into windows Calculator.

Please note B and C can be swapped for any resistance and if your resistance is 57.8888767857 do not add an extra point into the formula. For B you would put 578888767857.

Bold is wrong 2*66.6/((1-0.57.8888767857)+(1-0.50))= Italic is correct 2*66.6/((1-0.578888767857)+(1-0.50))=

To work out tankable DPS using 4 resistance types. Copy and paste Italic line into windows calculator and press equal’s. Using the above rules. 4*A/((1-0B)+(1-0.C)+(1-0.D)+(1-0.E))=

So you’re all ready to try passive tanking? Before you do don’t worry if the first 30% or even 50% of your shields go down semi fast it’s from 30 to 50% when your shields are strongest. Many active tank pilots are used to a constant HP regeneration and worry if they shields get to 50% or lower. For them if there shields hit 50% there tank will not hold so they have to bail out. For passive tankers it’s the other way around you don’t expect your shield to hold until you get below 50%. As a passive tanker you have to remember the lower your shields get the stronger they get until one of two things happen, either you shields stabilize or your shields drop to 20%. Once the shields get lower then 20% ish its time to warp out as you hit the point of no return, many pilots start to warp out once shields drop to 30%. But for me its 15 to 20% that’s the key as this point shields recharge slows down so much its not worth hanging about any longer unless the last enemy is about to die.

Above is why for many years people thought passive tanks where rubbish. First they did shield recharge/hit-points then they watched as the first 50% of the shields went fast and they warped out. It’s important to remember your shields are more then x5 stronger if not 10X stronger at 30% then at 99%. After a while you get a feel for how it works and you get used to your shields dropping fast from 50 to 100% The idea is the speed at which the shield drop, slows down more and more then somewhere between 30 and 50% the shields stabilize. Stabilize is the point at which HP regeneration matches incoming DPS. Some race cases your shields stabilize at 80% or higher. That means your tank is vastly superior to the enemy damage output. If this is a mission chance’s are your overtanking and should fit damage mods or something else

Peak regeneration is both a curse and a blessing. Active tanks get a constant HP regeneration there tank is just as strong at either 10%, 30% or 90%. The passive tank on the other hand tend to be very weak at 10%, but very strong 30%, weak 90%. It was a blessing as before passive tanks become popular or well known you could mislead enemy ships. Pirate’s would get you down to 50% ransom you and not expecting you to keep fighting or for your tank to hold. I used to win tournament like this by confusing enemy ships. Now passive tanking is very common and this trick rarely works.


Quick Facts

  • Passive tanks can use active modules. There is no point wasting cap, unless you need to be cap drain immune think about active hardeners.
  • It’s a myth battleships cannot passive tank well. Not all of them can but many make good passive tanks.
  • Do not overtank. Just because you can use up all your slots doesn’t mean you should. Think about fitting a target painter, damage mods or other useful modules. For level 4 missions I like to aim for a 650dps tank sometimes 350dps if I can get my damage output high enough.
  • The first HP regen passive tankers where mostly if not all Gallente please don’t act like it belongs to Caldari and have a go at passive tanking Gallente pilots. Caldari didn’t join in the fun until years after Gallente had been passive tanking. Interesting note: Caldari ships tend to have higher resistance and higher hitpoints, while Gallante ships tend to get higher HP regen with lower resistance. [1]
  • If PG or cap is a problem don’t forget about replacing 1 or 2 Shield Power Relays with Power Diagnostic Systems.
  • Never, ever, not even if your drunk on Jove wine fit shield flux modules for combat. There is no excuse to use these in combat, they are always bad. (Not as true now with T2 Flux modules but still pretty bad as lowering HP regen means you're more likely to go under the 30% peak point in one hit)
  • For PvP consider using PDS and Energy Neutralizers over Nos. 1 Neat module drain 2.5 times more 1 Nos module and you can knock the enemy down to 0% cap unlike Nos.
  • Don’t overlook the hitpoint pool with resistance over HP regeneration. 30k Hit-points with 50% resistance means without factoring in regeneration you can tank 60,000 hit-points worth of damage without taking into account regen. I often use the hit-point pool to kill rats so by the time I hit 30% shields the rats DPS is less then my tankable DPS.
  • The Original passive tank thread from all those years back [2]


So what skills do I need for a passive tank?

Must have passive shield tanking skills
Skill Multiplier Minimal level Benefit
Engineering 1 4 Needed for the Tactical Shield Manipulation skill
Science 1 1 Needed for other skills
Shield Operation 1 3 5% faster shield recharge rate per level
Shield Management 3 4 5% more shield hitpoints per level
Energy Grid Upgrades 2 2 Needed for Power Diagnostic System and Shield Relay modules
Shield Upgrades 2 2 Needed for Shield Extender and Shield Recharger modules
Tactical Shield Manipulation 4 1 Needed for Invulnerability Field modules
Jury Rigging 2 3 Needed for the Shield Rigging skill
Shield Rigging 3 1 Needed to fit Shield Rigs

Note: It is recommended to take Shield Operation & Shield Management to level 4 as soon as possible and make level 5 a priority after you get your other must have skills.

Elite passive shield tanking skills
Skill Multiplier Minimal level Benefit
Engineering 1 4 Needed for the Tactical Shield Manipulation skill
Science 1 1 Needed for other skills
Shield Operation 1 5 Maximum shield recharge rate
Shield Management 3 5 Maximum shield hitpoints
Energy Grid Upgrades 2 4 Needed for T2 Power Diagnostic System and T2 Shield Relay modules
Shield Upgrades 2 4 Needed for T2 Shield Extender modules
Tactical Shield Manipulation 4 4 Needed for T2 Invulnerability Field modules
Jury Rigging 2 3 Needed for the Shield Rigging skill
Shield Rigging 3 4 Needed to fit T2 Shield Rigs
Retrieved from "http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Passive_shield_tanking&oldid=66867"
Personal tools
Namespaces

Variants
Actions
Navigation
Tools