Difference between revisions of "Talk:Level 4 mission ship fits"

Revision as of 23:21, 28 December 2008

Excellent place to spear misinformation

You can be eighter right or wrong here. Those who makes real authentic fittings here will get flamed by those who knows it and says its wrong and those who makes wrong fittings just for "luls" will get counter flamed. Oh the joy of EVE :D--Kuolematon 18:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

IMO this page should not exist. This page has an official sounding name, but is nothing more than the opinions of a player who has taken it upon himself to write this page. Fittings are largely a matter of opinion and personal preference. It is impossible to reflect this in the article. Moreover, what if everybody took it upon themselves to make pages like this? Evelopedia would be flooded by articles like this one which would drown out legitimate articles. There is actually a good place for people to do this - either in the forums or in their own name space (which they can link from the forums) Sandy Brown 02:28, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

This page is an invaluable resource for new players looking to run level 4 missions. Because someone might disagree on the specifics the whole article shouldn't exist...? The setupts listed in the article are the "cookie cutter" fittings. They work. If you want to do your own setup, fine... but if you're a newer player, and you have no idea how to fit your ship, this is a great tool. Also, this page will be much easier to keep up-to-date than forums or one of the other common ways to find fittings. It's possible the article could be improved upon. But that's the cool thing about wikis... don't like it - improve it. --Kushan 10:31, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

It is precisely because people will not agree that there should not be pages like this! This page will always be opinion because there is no consensus as to what constitutes the standard setup (even for cookie cutter setups). People can try to improve it (whatever that means) but this will just result in edit wars. Sandy Brown 14:02, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

More important than the 'what' is teaching players the 'why' of fitting. And in that regard this page is failing miserably. So, IMO, without good explanations this page serves no purpose. --Rakshasa Taisab 20:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Intention good, but not well executed

Me thinks this information can be better organized First, all races on one page is not necessary. Second, the feasibility of some the setups can be questioned as well, but this will work itself out hopefully.

Me thinks a better approach would be to give each race their own page, or even each ship their own page. listing first a fitting that 1. Is possible to fit for pilots with lower SP 2. Corresponds with recommended Certificates 3. should be affordable as well, so no faction and T2.

Also there should be a short comment about the setup and how to use it the best way.

From this beginner setup, 2-3 improvements could be recommended as to give an clue about what is good way to improve on such a setup.

After that more advanced and expensive setups can be added, however the most interesting here would be more or less distinctive variations, for example a Dominix with sentry drones. And the 4 billion isk über-setup is generally not so interesting.

I originally didn't put much effort into formatting because I was working out the fits and just get everything linked and looking good. On top of getting mission specific hardeners going well... which crashed and burned. The final setup was going to look at entry zones. Low skill-low cost vs low skill-high cost vs high skill-medium cost. Krystal came and gave the current formatting. Too which I cant go and destroy, because tbh it isnt that bad. Also if you disagree with 1 or more of the fits. You can discuss it here in talk or simply goto the item database for the ship and post the fit there. Also Remember to Sign your stuff :) --Jason Edwards 04:04, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Article name

Level 4 Mission Ship fits better? abbreviations is ok but for new players they are confusing. is there any section with guidelines for such things yet?

In the context of missions... I dont understand how L4 could be confusing or misunderstood for something else... if one of those ISD people want... they can change the article's name if they want.--Jason Edwards 04:08, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Note at head of page

The note at the head of the page reads: Please note: This page is the opinion of the authors. It represents what are the best and most popular setups for the following ships.
It is not clear why they are these the best setups, nor is it clear that these are the most popular setups. Sandy Brown 14:22, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Ya I put the note there saved and then I was going to edit in some "example tables" detailing the understanding of the fits; but I lost power in my house because of the weather and when it came back on. I wasnt able to edit the page until it was approved. Then the power went out again. So I went to sleep.--Jason Edwards 00:52, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Edit war

STOP. I have to go through all these fits now because the inept person -Herschel Yamamoto- doesn't know that faction mods are actually better then tech 2.

-Tech 2 weapons take too long to train; while faction or meta 4 outperform tech 2 for very low cost.--Jason Edwards 01:38, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Is there a way to lock this page to where I have to accept any changes to my page? Not this ISD people who just accept it and not actually look at the setups?--Jason Edwards 02:04, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

This is a wiki, and as such, the purpose is constructive collaboration between users. While I recognize your feel a personal attachment to articles you have created, once you put them here, they're in the public domain. If you want your articles to be untouched, put them on a personal website. However, if there is a dispute, consensus should be reached on the talk page before making the edits. Edit wars serve no purpose. As for ISD members approving things - it's not our job to ensure the 100% accuracy of every edit submitted. Particularly in a situation like this, when fits can come down to personal preference... I can't know what you want in this article. Blatantly false edits won't be allowed, but every ISD member doesn't know everything about everything, and at some point they will have to assume good faith and approve the edit if they can't see anything wrong with it. Ideally, the community is self-moderating and someone who does know will point out the inaccuracy. We also want to give users a fair amount of freedom - moderating everything we perceive is inaccurate or we disagree with is counter to that.

"However, if there is a dispute, consensus should be reached on the talk page before making the edits. " Exactly what I would like. Except if you notice Herschell took it upon himself to edit the main article extensively without ever looking at the talk page. --Jason Edwards 04:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

On the subject of edit wars/consensus, I think the involved parties in this article should come to an agreement before moving forward. In my own personal (not official YARR) opinion, I think this article is a nice addition to the wiki, and an excellent resource for new players. I think it should focus more on the whys of fitting, ship specific reasons for fitting that way (cpu/pg, bonuses, etc) and explanations of pve fitting. In its current form, it provides some decent fits but little variety and no explanations. I will monitor this page, and if it really degenerates into an edit war, I'll consult with my superiors and look into locking it or some other alternative.

"I think it should focus more on the whys of fitting, ship specific reasons for fitting that way (cpu/pg, bonuses, etc) and explanations of pve fitting." I'm working on that with the example box; but I need to fix these extreme high skill modules out of the low skill setups first. --Jason Edwards 04:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

On the subject of meta lvl 4/5/faction, you're not taking into account weapon spec skills. Faction guns have more on-paper dps, but with spec lvl IV t2 guns will exceed meta 4/faction. With the notable exception of faction missile launchers... As for, "taking too long," a good point for newer players (the intended target audience of this article) but many people already have this or will have it eventually. Also, faction guns can be expensive. --ISD Salpsan 03:55, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes but that is only for weapon spec skills. These takes months and months to train. Which do not fit in low skill setups. Furthermore; faction for example Gallente navy stasis webifier is clearly better then tech 2 no matter of situation; I still left those to the high cost setups. Furthermore there are situations where meta 4 is better in all ways to t2. --Jason Edwards 04:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes this article is for the newer players; not for pvpers coming to pve with high skills; and not for ebay chars. This means tech 2 weapons are not an option. Isk can be earnt far faster then skills being trained. I have billions in my wallet, but no t2 weapon systems. If they dont have the isk for the high cost, low skill. They have the low cost, low skill option.--Jason Edwards 04:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I believe that we should point new players towards the tech 2 variants because if the tech 2 variant fits, the t1 one named should fit as well. Plus, it gives direction to new players. If you want faction fit versions, maybe direct them to the individual ship pages. Besides, directing brand new players to buy faction gear is a good way for them to lose a ton of isk, in a hurry. If they don't have the skill points, the might not have the skill to do shield pulsing, or aligning, or understanding when they've been misinformed about which missile type a rat uses. Also I have copied out the current configs to the individual ships, giving the 'experts' on that particular ship room to discuss, rather than locating all the ship fits on one page. I believe this is warranted because we have several hundred posts on the eve forums on different ship fits. Dictating only one right fit for level 4 missions is a sure fire way to have a useless and inaccurate page, with tons of changes per day, especially if you have an overly controlling creator.--Kismeteer 05:11, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

"Besides, directing brand new players to buy faction gear is a good way for them to lose a ton of isk, in a hurry. " No one has done this. So you can retract your assertion now.--Jason Edwards 05:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Did you actually read my changes? I put everything to T2 gear to make the page easier to read - use the base item names for everything, use a common grade of gear, and place a note at the top of the page on what was done, why, and how readers should deal with it. There's no cookie-cutter setup for anything(except the Dominix), so we shouldn't be using our own preferred item grades for fits. You cannot assume that everyone reading this has the bankroll for a dozen pieces of faction gear on their ship, so you give them the bare bones of the setup, and let them work out the details to fit their own budget. It's the only sane way to write an article like this, at least until someone goes in and makes useful pages for item categories(so I can link to Cruise Launcher directly instead of having to pick one particular model). Unless a specific piece of gear is needed - usually so that it'll fit on PG/CPU - go to the baseline. I'm well aware that faction gear is better. I've been playing longer than you, give me a bit of credit here. I just don't want to put it in the guide, unless it's a guide on how to fit a Titan.

As for "my page", please, get over yourself. It's a wiki, not a fiefdom. As for checking the talk page, I did. I didn't see any arguments of substance. What did you think I should avoid because of a discussion in progress?

As for how the article should be written, I largely agree about how it should be more of a guide and less of a list. I was actually working towards that with these edits - I didn't have the time to go rewrite it wholly, so I cleaned it up in a few ways - rewrote the note, added an intro, made the entries easier to read. It's not perfect, but it was a big improvement.

As for your hatred of T2 weapons, I don't know what to say that will convince you, but they do good damage, are quite cheap, and are readily available. As well, especially in the case of missiles and medium guns, they're not especially skill-intensive. Ultimately, this is what the note you deleted is for - nothing will satisfy everyone, pick a simple system and stick with it, instead of having a plethora of different systems of picking gear based on what whoever wrote it felt like at the time. Herschel Yamamoto 05:17, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Drake

Drake High Slots:

• 7x Heavy Missile Launcher II (Note: Requires Advanced Weapon Upgrades 4 to fit. If you don't have AWU, use Arbalests or drop a SPR to a PDU)
• 1x Small Tractor Beam I

Medium Slots:'

• 3x Large Shield Extender II
• 2x Mission Specific Hardeners
• 1x Shield Recharger II

Low Slots:

• 4x Shield Power Relay II

Rig Slots:

• 3x Core Defence Field Purger I

This setup requires high skill requirements. Deals less dps then the standard low skill, low cost raven, AND whose passive shield tank with maximum skills is effectively the same as the vanilla raven. So I am removing it. Leaving it here.--Jason Edwards 01:50, 29 December 2008 (UTC)