View source for CSM meeting minutes 2.010

[[Category:CSM]][[Category:CSM_Meeting_Minutes]][[Category:CSM_Second_Candidacy]]
=[[Council_of_Stellar_Management|Council of Stellar Management]]=
=Meeting Minutes=
<BR/>Sunday 5th April 2009
===Present===
[[Contributor_name:Ankhesentapemkah|Ankhesentepemkah]], [[Contributor_name:Darius JOHNSON|Darius JOHNSON]], [[Contributor_name:Issler Dainze|Issler Dainze]], [[Contributor_name:Lavista Vista|LaVista Vista]], [[Contributor_name:Omber Zombie|Omber Zombie]], [[Contributor_name:Tusko Hopkins|Tusko Hopkins]], [[Contributor_name:Vuk Lau|Vuk Lau]], [[Contributor_name:Meissa Anunthiel|Meissa Anunthiel]], [[Contributor_name:Extreme|Extreme]], [[Contributor_name:Sophie Daigneau|Sophie]] Dagneau, [[Contributor_name:CCP Xhagen|CCP Xhagen]], [[Contributor_name:GM Grimmi|GM Grimmi]]
===Apologies===
[[Contributor_name:Bunyip|Bunyip]]
===Absent===
[[Contributor_name:Pattern Clarc|Pattern Clarc]]
=Discussion=
<BR/>

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===Discussion with [[CCP|CCP]] Regarding Name Change Policy===
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:GM Grimmi|GM Grimmi]] wanted to discuss the [[CCP|CCP]] naming policy with [[Csm|CSM]].
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:GM Grimmi|GM Grimmi]] started by explaining that they wanted a system that wasn’t too rigid so they could help anyone as needed, but be consistent in their application of the rules. They have recently been considering a new way of doing this and are looking at the possibility of allowing organizations to change their names for isk, limited to once a year (an example).
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Lavista Vista|LaVista]] was vehemently against this idea.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Vuk Lau|Vuk]] couldn’t understand why the GM’s changed Kenzoku’s name and was totally against changing names for isk or real money.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Ankhesentapemkah|Ankhe]] thought [[Bob|BoB]] should get their name back as organizations should have the name they desire especially if they had historical rights to it, however changing the name months after and then changing it back was stupid. She thought that the ability to change names would be a good thing as people should be able to call themselves whatever they like.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Tusko Hopkins|Tusko]] did not like the idea of allowing people to change their names, eve is single universe and identity is a very important aspect of the game. Should [[CCP|CCP]] implement this type of system, it would be very important to let players easily access the ‘name history’ of the entity.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Issler Dainze|Issler]] wanted it noted that [[CCP|CCP]] needs to realize that any action taken with [[Bob|BoB]] that is slightly different than normal is doomed from the start. As for name changes she felt that there needs to be a mechanism, as she knows of some cases where players have started eve, picked a stupid name, liked the game but due to the investment in [[Skill_training|skill training]] time they would be stuck with that character name and quit. She also didn’t see how [[Bob|BoB]] had a right to claim a name they lost to a legitimate game mechanic.
<BR/>[[Omber|Omber]] asked for people to discuss the issue, not [[Bob|BoB]], and on the issue of changing names, he thought there should be a hard policy, no renaming unless the name violates the rules or is asked for within the first week of creation.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Extreme|Extreme]] had nothing against a name change mechanic, but would like the addition of a naming history and for the fee to do so to be high, and even higher if done again.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Darius JOHNSON|Darius]] did not have any feelings either way about name change mechanics; if it was operationalized then it would be set in stone and applied evenly across the board. In response to [[Contributor_name:Issler Dainze|Issler]], [[CCP|CCP]] should not take into account people’s perceptions of [[Bob|BoB]] as individuals, they deserve the same treatment as everyone else playing the game and it only becomes an issue when there is an appearance of special treatment.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:GM Grimmi|GM Grimmi]] thought that a system for name changes would have to keep records of prior names.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Meissa Anunthiel|Meissa]] thought that character names were more of an issue than the names of organizations, you can recreate a corp you cannot recreate a character. Tha said, he’s happy with renaming organizations for a fee.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Vuk Lau|Vuk]] still didn’t see why it should possible to change your name. No-one was forced to take those names at creation; it was their choice so they should live with it. If you want another name, start over. He also wanted to know who made the decision to rename BOBR.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Lavista Vista|LaVista]] wanted it noted that just because [[CCP|CCP]] burnt their fingers on the recent issue, it doesn’t justify the need to change something as fundamental as what [[CCP|CCP]] is suggesting. To him it is clear that this is a move to compensate for a mistake that was made, nobody asked for it and it is a bad idea.
<BR/>[[Omber|Omber]] was worried that with the ability to change names, exploiting names could be possible.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:CCP Xhagen|CCP Xhagen]] wanted to bring the discussion back to discussing the internal exception that was sent to [[Csm|CSM]] to look at. He wanted to know if that rule was considered fair.
<BR/>The ‘internal’ rule: "We have had an unofficial rule that we will change names less than a week old, since quite many players come out of the character/corporation/alliance creation process with a misspelled name. "
<BR/>Secondly, regarding the possibility of a renaming feature, this discussion was to see what the reaction to it would be, there has been no technical feasibility tests done. If the [[Csm|CSM]] thought it was a good thing, they can move on to seeing if it is possible.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Tusko Hopkins|Tusko]] was worried about the reputation side of things, people keep ‘name and shame’ type lists and he is afraid that if people or organizations can change their names at will it will be extremely difficult to track. He would only allow name changes for very new entities, maybe in the first week or so but not later on. Maybe also the possibility of allowing changes to people that have lost names due to policies.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Issler Dainze|Issler]] didn’t think there should be a time limit or other criteria. Something tied to a fee makes more sense. A good idea for a name today could be something horrible in the future. As an idea, why not do it in way similar to the real world where there is a public notice about it.
<BR/>[[Omber|Omber]] thought that if the ‘internal’ rule was made an official rule he would be happy with the naming policy as is.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Vuk Lau|Vuk]] wanted Grimmi to answer his question about who was responsible for the name change.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Ankhesentapemkah|Ankhe]] echoed [[Contributor_name:Vuk Lau|Vuk]]’s request and also noted that having name changes available for everyone. An example given was traded characters.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:GM Grimmi|GM Grimmi]] answered that the change was debated for a long time and was then decided by the Lead GM as well as many others. It was not a unanimous decision.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Issler Dainze|Issler]] wanted to know why [[CCP|CCP]] still didn’t understand that they can’t just do things like this involving [[Bob|BoB]]. The [[Csm|CSM]] exists largely to keep things like that happening.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Tusko Hopkins|Tusko]] wanted to know that if they a consensus among the GM’s why they backed off so easily.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Ankhesentapemkah|Ankhe]] answered [[Contributor_name:Issler Dainze|Issler]] that [[Bob|BoB]] doesn’t deserve special treatment in a negative way either. She also noted that the backflip was the most damaging aspect of this and wanted to know why it happened.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Extreme|Extreme]] wanted to stress that the policy should be kept simple or people wouldn’t understand it.
<BR/>[[Omber|Omber]] wanted to know what the basis was for changing the name in the first place as it seemed to go against both the public and internal naming policy.
<BR/>Gm Grimmi responded that three really wasn’t much more to say than what was said on the forums, it was a human error that proves once again that assumption is the mother of all f***ups.
<BR/>[[Omber|Omber]] wanted it to be made clear that the GM’s as a group decided that they should ignore their naming policy and then thought there would be no backlash.
<BR/>A small off topic discussion followed about what is and isn’t game mechanics.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:CCP Xhagen|CCP Xhagen]] noted that what they were trying to say is that a mistake was made with the renaming, a mistake that was corrected for better or worse. He felt that from the discussion that the naming policy is good, following it is now the important part. He also thinks that [[Csm|CSM]] could forsee a name changing mechanism within eve, however it would always keep a public record of those changes. He wanted to know if [[CCP|CCP]] should move forward in assessing whether it was technically possible to do this.
<BR/>The [[Csm|CSM]] generally agreed to [[CCP|CCP]] seeing if it was technically possible.
<BR/>And because [[Contributor_name:CCP Xhagen|CCP Xhagen]] asked (and he’s scary)
<BR/>THIS IS A CHECK OF TECHNICALITY. NOTHING HAS BEEN DECIDED ABOUT ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTING ANYTHING
<BR/>

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===[[Right_Click_-_Repair|Right Click - Repair]]===
<BR/>[[Omber|Omber]] introduced the issue.
<BR/>No real discussion other than jokes about the UI.
<BR/>Vote: 8-0 pass ([[Contributor_name:Ankhesentapemkah|Ankhe]] was afk)
<BR/>

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===[[Forum_Issues_and_CSM|Forum Issues & CSM]]===
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Darius JOHNSON|Darius]] introduced the issue.
<BR/>[[Omber|Omber]] just wanted it made clear that ‘oversight’ in this instance meant that [[Csm|CSM]] could question the forum policies rather than have overarching power on their moderation.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Darius JOHNSON|Darius]] said yes, however if policies are being applied improperly or are bad, [[Csm|CSM]] should be able to question them.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Ankhesentapemkah|Ankhe]] wanted to know if [[CCP|CCP]] gave any reason or explanation for their stance or was it just a ‘do not touch’ order.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Darius JOHNSON|Darius]] replied that Wrangler’s explanation (paraphrased) was that the forums had nothing to do with the game.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Issler Dainze|Issler]] thought this was a huge issue and needed to be surfaced, the forums are an important part of eve and this needs to be addressed and improved.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Vuk Lau|Vuk]] thought that technically the forums should be under [[Csm|CSM]] oversight just like any other part of the game.
<BR/>Vote 9-0 pass
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===[[Look_At_command_on_objects_more_than_100km|Probing]]===
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Vuk Lau|Vuk]] introduced the issue.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Ankhesentapemkah|Ankhe]] thinks this may be a technical limitation but loves the feature if it could be implemented.
<BR/>[[Omber|Omber]] agreed that he thought it was a technical limitation and if it required a lot of effort then he could think of a lot more important things [[CCP|CCP]] could do with the time.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Lavista Vista|LaVista]] pointed out that [[Csm|CSM]] didn’t exist to discuss technically feasibility.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Issler Dainze|Issler]] thought [[Contributor_name:Ankhesentapemkah|Ankhe]]’s comments about technical limits were nonsense. [[Contributor_name:Meissa Anunthiel|Meissa]] agreed.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Ankhesentapemkah|Ankhe]] gave a basic outline of how the eve engine worked.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Lavista Vista|LaVista]] reiterated his previous comment.
<BR/>[[Omber|Omber]] wondered if anyone had tested this limitation with the advanced camera tools. (after a quick test, it is still limited to 100km)
<BR/>Vote: 8-1 pass ([[Contributor_name:Ankhesentapemkah|Ankhe]] voted nay)
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===[[Default_settings_for_new_players|Default Settings for new players]]===
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Vuk Lau|Vuk]] introduced the issue.
<BR/>[[Omber|Omber]] wanted to know if this was actually an issue or a bug.
<BR/>[[Contributor_name:Vuk Lau|Vuk]] thought it was an issue, [[Contributor_name:Darius JOHNSON|Darius]] concurred that a bug is usually something unintended, this was intentional, so an issue.
<BR/>Vote: 9-0 pass
=Other Business=
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# From now on, [[Csm|CSM]] will be using the Evelopedia to store issue documents and meeting minutes. [[Omber|Omber]] will be mailing out instructions on how to do that during the week.

# [[Contributor_name:Issler Dainze|Issler]] pointed out that the New [[Player_Guide|Player Guide]] [[Csm|CSM]] link only shows the 1st [[Csm|CSM]]. [[Contributor_name:Vuk Lau|Vuk]]’s name is also spelled incorrectly. [[Contributor_name:CCP Xhagen|CCP Xhagen]] will be notified about the errors.

# [[Omber|Omber]] pointed out that technically neither of the issues [[Contributor_name:Vuk Lau|Vuk]] raised should have been discussed due to them not being raised by the Wednesday prior to the meeting. This breach of protocol won’t happen again.

# Due to a lack of time in [[Contributor_name:Vuk Lau|Vuk]]’s busy schedule, [[Contributor_name:Omber Zombie|Omber Zombie]] is now going to create and maintain agenda threads on the forums instead of [[Contributor_name:Vuk Lau|Vuk]].